Leadership Team

Grit, perseverance and determination are each attributes of a fearless leader, and Angela certainly has all three. When most people face a challenge, they run as fast as they can the other way, Scooby-Doo style. Angela races full speed toward it.

Angela started her career in digital media but quickly discovered her love for TV. (She’ll tell you she’s been fascinated with TV since appearing on the Howie Mandel Show in high school). Now she’s spent more than 15 years crafting TV campaign strategies designed to deliver ROI. Her in-depth TV marketing knowledge has not only overcome industry challenges, but also driven record-breaking profits. For Angela, it’s just another day.

Angela attributes her grit to her college basketball career. When paired with her unflinching focus and dogged desire to succeed, it’s easy to understand why she’s good at what she does.

And she’s definitely someone you want in your court. Today, she leads Marketing Architects in helping marketers launch and scale on TV to drive profitable growth for their businesses.

Angela’s spare time is spent with her family. She and her husband, Pete, have their hands full raising three girls with the same determination as their mom—something for which Angela is thankful. Most days, anyway.

How does a self-proclaimed introvert, who's more comfortable on a bass boat than at a podium, inspire an organization to run full steam toward what’s next to come?

Somehow, Chuck discovered the answer.

When it came to choosing a living, a younger Chuck Hengel was captivated by the renegade industry of performance marketing. With a brain for numbers, Chuck cut his teeth as a marketing statistician at one of the country’s largest performance marketing agencies. After jumping to the client side, he became a partner at the nation’s premier print agency, Novus Print Media.

But entrepreneurs hang shingles. So Chuck founded Marketing Architects. He drew the name out of a hat, but stuck with it because architects, like entrepreneurs, are all about building. And his little lemonade stand transformed into one of largest independent marketing agencies.

Today Marketing Architects serves brands looking to drive profitable growth and achieve category leadership. As Executive Chairman, Chuck leads new venture exploration, uncovering surprising ways to add agency value and drive long-term transformation.

Incredibly, Chuck still finds time for what’s truly important in life. His wife Cindy. His beautiful kids. And, of course, bass fishing.

Whitney’s bubbly personality belies a fierce and focused competitive spirit. As she often likes to say about sailboat racing (something she does every Thursday night), “I’m not having fun unless I’m winning.” Obviously, she does a lot of that at Marketing Architects, because it’s rare to see her without a big, broad smile on her face.

But let’s reverse course. Before working at Marketing Architects, Whitney taught high-risk 3rd graders in the Bronx, then English in South Korea. Teaching showed her what it takes to inspire, motivate and lead—skills that served her well when she next joined a particular TV agency.

After a few years helping brands reach major milestones, Whitney left to reach one of her own: pursuing her master’s. Degree in hand, Whitney took a job at an IT training company, where she led a sales team, doubling the company’s revenue in the process.

But Whitney missed the crew at Marketing Architects. She returned in 2016, getting back to exceeding the needs of clients, analyzing the effectiveness of each campaign, and leading with her signature passion and vision.

When Whitney’s not charting a course to success for clients, she is skipper to her son and twin stepdaughters, whom she affectionately refers to as her "bonus kids."

Steve’s journey into advertising started in a mailroom. But not just any mailroom. That of a well-known ad agency.

It was there, in what was originally just a way to pay for college, that Steve discovered the creativity and problem-solving that goes into crafting an incredible ad. And he loved it.

So he turned his mailroom gig into a copywriting job. It was this move that would lead to roles at agencies like Boede + Partners, Crispin Porter + Bogusky, and EVB. Working on brands like Volkswagen, American Express, and Activision. And being named among Forbes’ “30 Most Creative People in Social Media” and XYZ’s “Top 25 Young Creative Professionals.”

But Steve thrives when facing the challenge of the unknown. When VaynerMedia asked him to be their first Chief Creative Officer, Steve eagerly transformed their creative processes. Later, he began consulting and uncovered new ways to elevate brands’ creative outputs. And when Marketing Architects reached out, he was all-in on starting a new adventure at an agency with a unique business model.

In rare spare moments, Steve can be found scouring Home Depot for inspiration for his latest woodworking project. Or living out his rock and roll dreams playing his bass guitar.

Brent’s no ordinary spreadsheet-thirsty numbers guy. He’s a strategic thought leader. And a charismatic one to boot.

It all began on a basketball court. His father said, "To be successful on the pine floor, you have to take things one week at a time and success will come. " Father knew best, because Brent went on to lead the University of St. Thomas to its first Final Four appearance and is one of only a handful of players inducted into the school’s Hall of Fame.

And that was just the start of his winning streak. During his early career at Arthur Andersen, Pillsbury and Agiliti, he showed the same passion for the balance sheet as he did on the court. In 2002, Brent joined a little company on the rise called Marketing Architects. He was quickly instrumental in establishing vital financial systems during the company’s early years. But with Brent’s strategic vision and contagious attitude, he spends any given day influencing the organization’s direction and growth, and helping to pen the blueprint for what’s next at Marketing Architects.

How does Brent play so many roles, balancing work and a busy non-work schedule? He follows his dad’s timeless advice and takes it one week at a time.

When Catherine was five years old, her parents strapped a pair of wooden water skis to her feet and fired up the family’s old Sea Ray. She’s been addicted to adrenaline and adventure ever since.

After trick skiing, racing around in speed boats, rappelling off cliffs, and trekking across glaciers, Catherine discovered a new kind of adventure that resulted in far fewer broken bones: media buying. A young star at LAKANA, she earned her stripes managing campaigns on NBCOlympics.com during the Athens and Torino games, thriving on the thrill of steering multimillion-dollar accounts like Coke, Kleenex, AT&T, Sony, GM, Volkswagen, and Visa.

Record success. It’s no surprise that when Catherine took the helm of Marketing Architects’ Media Buying Services team, she steered it to its most successful year in TV. She says it’s the thrill of launching new clients; trying out new shows, programs and networks; and finding big breakthroughs that gets her adrenaline pumping now.

When Catherine isn't navigating the seas of media buying, she can be found on the old family boat with her puppies, crashing through the waves of the Minnesota lake where it all began.

As a kid, Rob spent his free time learning card tricks and watching every episode of Knight Rider. Which made it clear at an early age that Rob was destined for a career as either a traveling magician or a creative advertising executive. Rob opted for the latter route, copywriting for brands like General Mills, Hostess, Burger King, Domino’s, and Hefty.

Then, in 2004, Rob joined Marketing Architects with the mandate to build a creative department from the ground-up. It was a chance to flex his creative thinking and project management know-how, and Rob gladly accepted the challenge. He formed an eclectic team to produce work that’s both data-driven and emotionally captivating.

But that was just the beginning.

When the agency launched a product development arm, Rob leaned into his entrepreneurial side. Learned to think like the clients for whom he’d guided creative. Led ideas along the path from wild concept to viable business. And when the opportunity to focus 100% on building new products appeared—well, it was almost magical.

At home, Rob still enjoys performing card tricks for his wife and kids, and of course, watching reruns of Knight Rider.

What do you call a guy who’s accepted into college at age 15, graduates with a double major and was an expert in web design before the world knew the web existed? We call him Aaron Lange, but to say he’s just an overachieving techno guru is selling him short.

Let’s take a step back. His childhood was steeped in entrepreneurial spirit. His grandfather started a successful taxi company. His dad started a photo lab. An uncle ran an electronics store. In short, his family was a startup incubator decades before Silicon Valley was a thing. And that childhood gave Aaron more business savvy by age 12 than many adults have at 42.

So what happens when an aptitude for technology meets a sixth sense for opportunity? You get a hacker who propels companies forward by breaking and retooling technology to meet their ever-changing needs. And that’s why Aaron is a perfect fit as the head of technology at Marketing Architects.

When he’s not bending software to his will, you’ll find him engrossed in the latest board game with his family or on the court, playing competitive volleyball.

Oh, and don’t even get him started on the time he reconfigured a calculator into a keypad lock for his bedroom door as a teenager. Mom was not amused.

For Dhiren, the most interesting challenges are both creative and analytical. After studying economics and contemplating a career in finance, he realized that despite enjoying the detail-oriented and fast-paced nature of the field, he was missing space for creativity. Enter advertising, the perfect blend of art and science, intuition and precision.

And so began an impressive career working at some of the biggest ad agencies in the country, with global clients in technology, financial services, travel, and entertainment. Dhiren enjoyed meticulously studying multiple industries while dreaming up creative business ideas—with much success. His ability to build strong partnerships while truly understanding clients’ businesses led to growing a single project with a multi-national client into an agency of record relationship with 13 brands.

But Dhiren also appreciates an entrepreneurial spirit. And when he learned about Marketing Architects’ disruptive model, he was intrigued. Now he’s leveraging his brand building experience and applying it to the precise nature of performance advertising and our own Marketing Architects clients.

When Dhiren’s not leveraging his advertising expertise, he’s spending time with his wife and three kids. In rare spare moments, he can be found experimenting with new recipes in the kitchen, searching his native New York for street art to photograph, or cheering on the Oregon Ducks.

Nicole always knew she was destined for a career in advertising. She loved the industry’s creativity and its never-ending challenges and opportunities. She also appreciated working with fellow problem-solvers who were bright, determined and dynamic.

Nicole began her career working on big branding initiatives that ranged from helping Dyson make its debut in the U.S. to launching Target’s very first website, and so many things in-between. She enjoyed building just the right message for clients’ brand-driven campaigns, especially initiatives that drove impact. This passion for accountability pushed her to explore performance marketing and hone the ability to drive definitive, ROI-boosting results.

When she learned about Marketing Architects’ mission to merge brand and performance into stunning results for clients, Nicole was intrigued. Now she’s building brands and bottom-lines, leveraging her marketing experience across the funnel to achieve business-transforming outcomes.

And while championing big ideas for bold brands is no small role, Nicole puts her spare moments to good use. She’s often testing new recipes in the kitchen for her three children to critique, cheering them on at sporting events, planning family trips or enjoying a perfectly brewed cup of tea.

Devan has always loved advertising, from the creativity that goes into making a great ad, to the way it facilitates a memorable shared experience. The way it both shapes and is shaped by pop culture.

So when given an opportunity to generate game-changing business results through advertising, Devan jumped at the chance. And so began his journey at Marketing Architects. He brought along skills he’d developed coaching youth basketball—clear communication, adaptability, knowing when to pivot and when to hold his ground. Turns out all these skills translate to both managing a team and successfully partnering with clients.

Plus, Devan’s favorite parts of coaching are the same things he loves about driving client results. Working together as a team. Using creative problem solving to tackle new challenges. The excitement after a big win. And after nearly a decade at Marketing Architects, Devan’s seen a lot of wins.

When not looking for ways to level up clients’ campaigns, Devan can be found working on his latest DIY home improvement project or on the ice, practicing with his curling team for their next bonspiel.

Stephanie’s competitive spirit traces back to the first time she golfed with her dad as a kid. From that moment, there was no settling for anything less than excellence. While playing collegiate golf, she competed in conference championships, sharpening both her drive and team-building skills.

But it was after college, in her first role at a marketing agency, that Stephanie discovered another passion. Not only was she incredible at crushing performance goals, but she had a knack for managing relationships. Her keen listening skills and optimistic energy kept client interactions engaging, intentional, and positive.

Building digital marketing experience let Stephanie tap into her performance-driven nature while collaborating with well-known healthcare and financial companies. Even so, Stephanie’s favorite part of her work was always seeing the impact on clients’ businesses. So the opportunity to partner on TV campaigns at Marketing Architects was hugely exciting. After all, TV’s arguably the most transformative marketing channel there is.

Now, Stephanie leads a team fully dedicated to helping clients achieve results on TV. Outside of work, she can be found chasing after her toddler, reading, or, naturally, winning golf tournaments.

As Marketing Architects’ first marketing hire, Clark joined the agency before it truly was an “agency.” Most people would’ve been intimidated by the fast pace of an early-stage company with a love for change and an evolving business model. But not Clark. Instead, he rolled up his sleeves and applied the work ethic and problem-solving skills he learned growing up on his family’s North Dakota farm.

From scaling in radio to pivoting into TV advertising, Clark saw the agency through several major shifts. Along the way, he provided consistent operational support and strategic insights enabling Marketing Architects to stand out and gain new clients. All the while, he guided expanding sales and marketing teams.

But what Clark has always enjoyed most about his work is learning from marketers and business leaders across a variety of industries. And then, of course, identifying opportunities for brands to reach new levels of growth with TV advertising.

When he's not meeting with a prospective client, you can find Clark running, hiking, or spending time with his family. Or working his way through a history book. He’s read biographies for nearly every U.S. president!

Having been born on an Air Force base, moving feels like breathing for Catrina. She grew up stepping foot on every continent on Earth, where she learned to walk in other people’s shoes. So, when she got a call on a dreary London afternoon about a job in San Francisco at the height of the dot-com boom, she was on a plane the same week.

Catrina brought a unique skill set to the United States, the likes of which we had never seen. She was awarded an H1 visa, normally reserved for rocket scientists and brain surgeons, because she was part of the team that brought over account planning as we know it today.

While traditional agencies were trying to tell customers what to believe, Catrina was involved in cutting-edge research that put customers in charge. She was walking in their shoes. Literally.

Dr. Scholl’s had been a tired brand for old feet until Catrina and her team walked in their customers’ shoes. Now it’s a brand on the move, leading the charge against a sedentary lifestyle.

Catrina kept moving, most recently to Atlanta and Chicago with BBDO, until her husband and two daughters finally convinced her to settle down in Minnesota. Conditionally. She still travels anytime she’s inspired.

As a kid, Dan wasn’t quite the athletic superstar he wanted to be. Then his soccer coach gave him some advice: "You won't beat anyone doing the same thing they are. Find ways to do things differently than everyone else."

So, Dan got really good at coming up with different – and better – ways to do things. Beyond sports, his coach's advice freed him from the constraints of the status quo and sparked his desire to explore uncharted territory. He served in the Army. He launched Fortune 500 companies’ loyalty programs. He also built analytics departments from the ground up – using an unconventional approach, of course. While everyone else focused on either performance metrics or brand building, Dan did both. He created an analytics department where analysts worked right alongside anthropologists.

These days, Dan's passion for finding different and better ways is enhancing Marketing Architects' robust Analytics DNA ^SM platform, melding brand building and performance metrics to deliver unparalleled insights.

The old coach's advice put him on a path to play competitively in college. But more importantly, learning the value of continually looking for ways to improve has guided his 30 years as a husband and father.

Matt blames his weird brain on his parents. Raised by a CPA and a piano teacher, he grew up in a home where the languages of math and music merged at their common denominator: patterns.

From algorithms to musical rhythms, Matt delights in finding the order behind the chaos. He loves playing with patterns as a pianist and electronic dance music composer. He loved establishing patterns in his college basketball career (specifically patterns of winning). And he loves identifying patterns in numbers as an analyst. It’s what made him one of the industry’s leading experts on attribution.

Matt’s friends make fun of him for his Rubik’s Cube obsession, but it’s all that practice at solving challenges faster and faster that prepared him to lead Marketing Architects’ analytics team to the cutting edge of technology and innovation. It also prepared him for a role as a key architect behind the results program that drives Marketing Architects’ Emotive Solutions Platform.

When he’s not pursuing his life goal of memorizing all 60 algorithms for solving any possible Rubik’s Cube, Matt spends his time going to concerts, playing basketball and establishing a pattern of beating his dad at golf.

Jordan’s obsession with statistics started with sports. By the age of ten, he was meticulously following baseball box scores online and even managing his first fantasy football team.

In college, Jordan explored a new outlet for his love of numbers: marketing. He was captivated by how data could inform marketers’ understanding of consumer behavior—and even influence that behavior. This fascination led to his first job, where he designed surveys that helped retailers optimize their in-store experiences.

But that’s when an analytics role at Marketing Architects caught Jordan’s eye. Evaluating TV campaigns’ performance provided the chance to uncover truly transformative business insights buried in data.

At the agency, Jordan quickly earned a reputation for being able to sniff out patterns from massive datasets. His data smarts and clear communication style led to consistent wins, whether he was building a pretesting platform or guiding clients through complex attribution models. Today, Jordan spends his time thinking about big-picture ways to advance the agency’s analytics capabilities.

Of course, Jordan’s still obsessed with sports stats. He plays almost every fantasy sport and even hosted a Fantasy Football podcast for years. And don’t get him started talking about Moneyball.

When six-year-old Ron got his first allowance, he didn't rush to 7-Eleven for candy. He made a pros and cons list of every candy to identify the very best option (apparently, it's Fun Dip). When his friends were buying their first cars based on color, Ron created a spreadsheet to analyze every make, model and dealership for the best interest rate, reliability and fuel economy. You see, Ron is what you’d call a maximizer.

Fast forward a few decades, and Ron has used that same passion to cement his reputation for maximizing media. His secret?

Know every detail about every offer on every table. With that philosophy, he’s created huge wins for clients. Like the time he saved Walmart $20 million through strategic media partnerships. Or the countless times he's negotiated his client’s way into coveted media events like the Super Bowl, the Olympics, the World Cup, and the NCAA Championship. For Ron, a fun day centers on relentlessly securing the best options.

When Ron isn't maximizing transformative media deals, you can find him enjoying family time. That is, until his son and daughter start negotiating for a later bedtime. They are their father’s kids after all.

Vivienne doesn’t believe in boring. Mostly because boring is the antithesis of creativity, and creativity is a priority in Vivienne’s life. (And work).

As an only child, Vivienne had to create her own fun. As a result, coming up with ideas became her natural (and survival) state. At a summer internship at Arnold Worldwide in college, Vivienne found the perfect challenge: how do you create fun, memorable ads that get people excited?

This is how Vivienne began her career in advertising, writing and art directing for creative hot shops like Mad Dogs and Englishmen and Crispin Porter + Bogusky. Her work for brands like Burger King, Volkswagen, Old Navy, and Kraft has been awarded by Cannes, the ANDYs, The London International Awards, and others.

After working at top ad agencies around the country, Vivienne was intrigued to learn about Marketing Architects. The business model was unique, and the chance to foster a not-boring, inspirational environment was an ideal opportunity.

Outside of work, Vivienne continues to fight the boring by instilling creativity in everything she does. From kids’ birthday parties to global campaigns, her mission is ongoing, and she savors every minute of it.

John knows what great teamwork looks like. In part, that’s because he began his career as a sports news photographer, shooting teams like the Carolina Panthers and Kansas City Chiefs. But it’s also due to his experience working with teams to accomplish remarkable things.

After discovering his love for TV, John heard about a Minnesota agency looking to build a production facility from the ground up. At the time, Marketing Architects was solely focused on radio. No one knew if TV would work.

But to John, there’s a way to do just about anything with the right people and tools. Plus, his own Swiss-army-knife skillset was perfect for the challenge. He partnered with architects and contractors to build a studio, hired editors and producers to create commercials, and identified ways to accelerate workflows across the board.

Today, the agency is 100% focused on TV, and John guides production operations, helping the team collaborate efficiently to produce stellar work for clients. While exploring opportunities to improve, of course.

Outside of work, John can be found listening to his newest vinyl with his girlfriend, Steph, and dogs, Vincent and Frankie, or kicking off his next DIY house project.

Nolan’s always loved TV commercials. Growing up in the 90s—which Nolan would argue was the golden age of TV—his favorite ads were inherently clever and entertaining. He couldn’t wait to make that type of commercial someday.

After studying marketing and advertising in college, Nolan created digital and social video for companies like Target, Best Buy, and Caribou Coffee. He enjoyed the fast-paced, highly creative environment, but his 10-year-old self couldn’t shake his love for TV.

Which brought him to Marketing Architects.

As an editor, Nolan established a reputation for quick turnarounds, creative problem-solving, and outside-the-box thinking. So it wasn’t long before Nolan was producing, then managing producers, then overseeing all production of Marketing Architects’ commercials. From managing timelines and budgets to developing highly efficient workflows, Nolan regularly advances the team’s ability to make remarkable work that works remarkably.

When he’s not buried in Gantt charts, you can find him cruising around on a golf cart with his wife and three daughters, grilling by the pool, and soaking in the Arizona sun.

People often comment about Joel’s ability to get in “The Zone”—the zone where challenges are opportunities, there’s constant room for improvement, and a stunning amount of work gets done. But those who know Joel recognize...he lives in “The Zone.”

After launching a career in ecommerce and marketing, Joel discovered a love for conversion optimization. To Joel, conversion is the perfect intersection of consumer psychology, marketing, and technology, all tied nicely together with measurable results. He’s worked with businesses big and small across almost every online industry including retail, hospitality, non-profit, SaaS, and mass customization. If there’s an action to be taken online, Joel can optimize for it.

So when Marketing Architects decided it was time to expand their suite of conversion offerings, Joel’s passion for continuous improvement and innovation was exactly what was needed to drive meaningful business results while forging an exciting new path for the platform.

And it turns out that living in “The Zone” isn’t just a daytime trait. When he’s not working with clients to improve conversion rates, Joel’s writing his next novel, practicing the Filipino martial art of Modern Arnis, or working on launching his next product idea.

When Rita does something, she does it right. The details aren't just important. They're everything.

Rita doesn't just cook her own Chinese food. She scours the internet for rare seeds to grow her own Facing Heaven peppers to make Szechuan delicacies. She doesn't just garden. She learns the Latin name and optimal soil PH level for every plant in her perennial garden. And she doesn't just read. She studies multiple translations of the classics. (Caroline Alexander’s is her favorite translation of Homer’s Iliad – if you were wondering.)

Not surprisingly, Rita’s thorough approach to excellence has accelerated her professional career as well. She quickly made a name for herself at one of New York’s most prestigious law firms. Then, she moved to Minneapolis to help big brands protect their trademarks as an advisor and litigator, even going out with federal marshals on a raid to confiscate counterfeit luxury watches.

Here at Marketing Architects, Rita is constantly digging into the latest legal developments in marketing, advertising, intellectual property, and information technology. She assesses how they impact the agency and our advertisers in every category.

When Rita isn’t poring over TV scripts and legal documents or perfecting Szechuan classics, she (thoroughly) enjoys spending quality time sailing with her husband and daughter.

Elena’s not one to do things halfway. So when she started riding horses at age 10, she took it seriously. In high school, she began training on the east coast for competitions. Her focus was Three-Day Eventing—a combination of dressage, cross-country, and show jumping. She even attended college online so she could continue to compete.

But despite committing 100 percent to her goals, Elena’s not afraid to pivot quickly when those goals change. After deciding she didn’t want to ride horses forever, she found a role at Marketing Architects.

Unsurprisingly, Elena threw herself fully into becoming the best marketer possible. She devoured podcasts, newsletters and courses. She watched Marketing Architects’ leadership team closely, learning from their expertise. And while the rest is history, Elena’s always looking to the future of the agency. To learning what’s next for marketing and TV advertising.

Still, Elena’s dedication to learning extends beyond Marketing Architects. When she’s not digging through marketing headlines, she’s prepping for her next triathlon by running nearby trails. (While listening to her favorite cycling podcast, of course). After all, triathlons are a little like Eventing, minus the horse.

Careers are born at Chuck E. Cheese. At least, that’s how Jordan’s began.

Working for the entertainment industry, he loved thinking about what drew people in. He was fascinated by consumer behavior... and how creative ideas could impact that behavior.

So after earning his MBA, Jordan kickstarted a career that allowed him to investigate consumer behavior for some of the biggest brands in the world. We’re talking US Bank, Activision, VISA, UnitedHealthcare, General Mills, and NASCAR. Most recently, Jordan served as VP of Marketing for Shutterfly.

Regardless of industry, Jordan’s always followed two rules in his work. Start by understanding the consumer experience through data. Then use innovative thinking to make that experience better. So when Marketing Architects offered him a role that would let him flex both analytical and creative chops, it was an ideal fit.

Jordan’s creativity also shows up in other areas of his life. Like the backyard pond he built over one summer that was featured on Rebecca’s Garden. Or in his love for EDM—he's attended music festivals like EDC in Vegas and is planning on many more!

Stephanie’s passion for people is obvious the moment you meet her. To her, nothing is more exciting than helping someone move forward in their career. And when she says, “Tell me more about that,” she means it.

Stephanie studied fashion merchandising in school, but after managing membership at a non-profit, she realized it was empowering others that she loved most about her work.

So she changed course and kickstarted her career in human resources by recruiting for a law firm. That turned into a series of roles connected to hiring, coaching, and leadership development. With each new role, she watched other leaders closely and dug into whatever learning resources she could use to grow her own skills.

Fifteen years later, Stephanie had established a reputation for her dedication to constant growth, empathetic outlook, and genuine curiosity. Looking for an opportunity to put her impressive toolkit of human resources skills to use, Stephanie discovered Marketing Architects. It was a clear fit.

Outside of work, Stephanie’s usually spending time with her family—cheering at her kids’ events, going on walks with her goldendoodle, Crosby, or exploring new vacation destinations. And she still loves fashion. She has a whole collection of books on the topic!