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Episode 90

Marketing's Role in Product with Jaime LaMontagne

In healthcare marketing, product and marketing are inseparable. But in many industries, marketers have become disconnected from the products they promote. What does this mean for marketing effectiveness?

Exact Sciences CMO Jaime LaMontagne joins Elena and Angela to explore how staying connected to product drives better marketing outcomes. Drawing from her extensive healthcare marketing experience, Jaime shares advice on balancing multiple stakeholders, strict regulations, and evolving patient expectations.

Topics Covered

• [01:00] Why healthcare marketers must understand their products deeply

• [06:00] Using claims matrices to communicate with different stakeholders

• [14:00] Balancing creative marketing with healthcare regulations

• [18:00] How patient empowerment is changing healthcare marketing

• [23:00] The importance of both brand building and demand capture

• [30:00] Why marketers should 'call their baby ugly'

Resources:

2024 MarketingWeek Article

Jaime LaMontagne’s LinkedIn

Exact Sciences

Today's Hosts

Elena Jasper

VP Marketing

Angela Voss

Chief Executive Officer

Jaime LaMontagne

CMO at Exact Sciences

Transcript

Elena: Hello, and welcome to the Marketing Architects, a research-first podcast dedicated to answering your toughest marketing questions. I'm Elena Jasper. I run the marketing team here at Marketing Architects, and I'm joined by my co-host, Angela Voss, the CEO of Marketing Architects.

And we're joined by a guest today, Jaime LaMontagne, the CMO of Exact Sciences. Jaime spent years driving growth in healthcare marketing, including over 17 years at Medtronic, where she led marketing for major parts of their business, including their medical education team, as well as global marketing for their cardiac rhythm management division, which includes products like pacemakers.

Now at Exact Sciences, which owns a variety of brands like Cologuard, she's making a real impact in cancer diagnostics, helping to ensure health solutions reach people who need them most. She has expertise in uniting marketing with product, a passion for today's evolving consumer, and I like to think she's a Minnesotan at heart, so what's not to love there? Welcome, Jaime.

Jaime: Thank you for having me.

Angela: Thanks so much for joining us. It's fun to have a Minnesotan on the show. I know we ran into each other at the recent ANA event. So happy to get you to join us today. You spent two tours at Medtronic. What drew you to that unique challenge of marketing in such a highly regulated industry? What keeps you motivated to make an impact there?

Jaime: Yeah, Angela. Two tours, 18 years at Medtronic, but I really got the bug right out of college for the med device space and the healthcare industry at large. I think I was drawn to this industry because of the impact that it makes on patients' lives directly. It does have a lot of unique challenges.

Marketers need to understand the diseases that they're working within and the current treatments for those diseases. We have to connect across many different stakeholders, from physicians to engineers, understanding challenges that they face in treating those diseases, and then ultimately identifying ways to improve patient care.

And that's really deeply motivating when you meet these patients, when you work with these physicians, and when you bring these elements together to ultimately create a new solution. You're not just advancing medicine, but you're actually helping those physicians or healthcare providers provide better patient care and ultimately helping patients live longer, fuller lives.

So really that sense of purpose has always kept me energized in this space. And it keeps me very committed and motivated to continue.

Angela: Such a cool journey. I think we all look for purpose in what we do and find it in some capacity, but yours is a little more direct perhaps. So congratulations on everything you've done so far.

Jaime: I think when people get into this space, it's really hard to get out. I do say there are some days I'm like, ah, it would be kind of nice to market Cheerios, but you have those moments where you really see the impact and it's worth it.

Elena: Well, we're glad you stuck with it because we're excited to learn from you today. I think that you have this expertise in a complex industry and a lot to share. So we're excited to have you here. And as always, we're here with our thoughts on some recent marketing news. As a reminder, we try to root our opinions in data research and what drives business results.

And this interview with Jaime, it's part of our effectiveness workshop, where we talk to marketing leaders who are leading the way for effectiveness in the U.S. And I usually kick off these interviews with a piece of research or an article. And Jaime and I were able to chat a bit before we scheduled this interview.

And I learned more about her experience being tied closely to product, which is not always the case for marketers. So I found a perfect article to tee us up. It's from, no surprise, Mark Ritson for Marketing Week, and it's titled "Liquid Death's Fame Shows How Badly Marketers Neglect Product.” And in the article, Ritson critiques a brand that's often revered in marketing circles, and that is Liquid Death.

Liquid Death is known for edgy branding, bold packaging, and viral marketing, but Ritson believes it reveals a deeper issue in the way we approach marketing today. We celebrate their promotional genius, but might overlook the actual product. And despite its cult following, Liquid Death remains a small player compared to beverage giants like Coke, which I found shocking, generates Liquid Death's annual revenue in just three days.

And Ritson reminds us that marketing's responsibility doesn't end with comms. Product quality and value should always come first. He believes we've become too focused on creating buzz and miss opportunities to understand what we're really marketing. So, Jaime, thank you for joining. That article is in Ritson's somewhat controversial style, but I think the takeaway is still relevant and worth discussing. So let's start here: Why do you think that marketing often becomes disconnected from product?

Jaime: That's a great question. I really loved that article. Thank you for highlighting it. In my experience, and I think this is something somewhat unique to my industry, product and marketing are inseparable. But as you've called out, this experience, this learning is definitely not universal.

I do think that marketing can become disconnected when the market gets disconnected from the why behind the product - why was this product developed? What's the value that it's meant to provide? And I think that's kind of what's being called out here with Liquid Death - what's the value of this water other than the cool marketing and the cool packaging and the comms? So I think when a product no longer meets those value expectations, that's really when you start to see that disconnect. And in my case, that would be time to innovate.

So for me, I've always prioritized getting out to customers as early and often as possible, understanding how your products are used, the challenges and the value that they provide or the challenges that they solve and address, as well as the value that they provide, the environment that product is used in.

Those are all extremely important insights into how that product needs to be marketed when you really understand how the customers are using it, interacting with it. That is gold for marketing. And so it's really that constant connection between the product, the customer, and the marketer.

For example, for me in the cardiac surgery space, I observed many surgeries. It was amazing - open heart surgery, seeing the heartbeat, the lungs contract, how these surgeons do what they do every day. But being in that environment, hearing them work, working with the team, not just with the surgeons but with their team, experiencing the pressures that they face - this was extremely important insights into what I needed to bring back to the product team, to my engineers, and then also how to market that product to better help those surgeons and meet those needs.

So for me, ultimately, staying super connected to the why and the constant kind of change around the why and the value that that product provides is the marketing gold. And when there's that disconnect, that's when you start to have those challenges.

Elena: It sounds like it's about coming back to what the customer wants, understanding their needs, the why behind the product, which sounds like it makes so much sense, but it's funny how it's easy for marketers to sometimes get disconnected from that.

Do you have any tips for marketing teams - if they're not naturally as aligned to product as you are, how else could they get closer to it and maybe contribute to making it better?

Jaime: Yeah, I think that's super important. I think that having 25 years now in marketing and specifically in this space, a big learning for me was doing that whole process. So my advice to marketers would be to try to get stints on the product side of the business. So I started off in what we call the upstream marketing function, which is really those early upstream product decisions, starting from a concept to getting through what those customer requirements are going to be for that product.

You're kind of living that role. I understood what it was like - how do they make those decisions? How do they reconcile different opinions? And then later when I was in the downstream side of the marketing engine, so that was more launching the products, managing the products through the life cycle.

I understood what was going on the product side. I could bring those insights back to them and what would be valuable and vice versa. And part of it too, is also understanding why did the product team make the decisions that they did? Why did they make the product blue? Why did they make it three inches rather than five inches? Those are really important insights.

And so my advice to the marketing team would be just communicate, over communicate, share, find those connections, and then from a career perspective, if you have that opportunity, do both sides of the process, because it's invaluable insights into how each side comes to that final product or solution. And then lastly, I would just say, it's about curiosity, always asking good questions, understanding the why behind those decisions, observing, connecting those dots. When you're on the marketing side, when you have that curiosity and you're bringing that back to the product team, that's gold. That ultimately helps them shape their next product.

Elena: That's interesting that you worked in those different areas. I think with some of our clients, we're hearing that more and more that they actually have a system where marketers will move from different parts of the business and it seems like that makes a really well-rounded marketer.

Angela: Absolutely. Yeah. We see that more and more.

Jaime: I think it's super important because you don't really understand what it's like to be on the front end of things. I would say that I've seen a lot of people that really love to do the beginning part of it because they get to make the decision on what does this thing look like? And then those people also are interested in launching it and seeing it come to fruition. I think seeing both sides of the coin, having both those experiences, makes a really well-rounded marketer.

Elena: Well, Jaime, you mentioned communication and the importance of clear communication. And one thing I really wanted to talk to you about is how you manage having all these messages to different stakeholders and different groups. You speak to doctors and patients and regulators, and I think when I hear about marketers who have like a two-sided marketplace, I start to think, "Oh my goodness, that'd be so overwhelming."

I'm glad that I don't have to manage that. But you're in a unique spot where you're managing even more than that. So how do you think about communicating your product value clearly to each group?

Jaime: Elena, that's a really good question. I don't think people truly understand that for health marketing and med tech marketing. It is really complex at times and very nuanced. But one of the things we do is use something called a claims matrix or communication plan. And ultimately what we do is we look at what is the product value? What are the problems for each of those stakeholders that we want to solve? And then how do we actually create a cohesive product message matrix?

And so you have your ultimate value proposition for your product, but then that has specific nuances. Because as you call out, we have regulators like the FDA that require accuracy and tons of data. You have health systems like a Mayo or Kaiser and payers who are looking for why do I want this product? What's the value that we're going to get at a system level versus the price that the company is charging? Physicians need information - why should I choose this product versus a different product? And they need to feel really comfortable with wanting to use your products. So there's education involved there.

And then, of course, the patient. You have to hit them at that moment in their journey, whether it's awareness - do they have this disease? What are the options to treat this disease? And then how do we help them manage post-treatment or post-product? Those are all interconnected, but to your point, slightly different and with slightly different messaging.

So again, we use this tool, a claims matrix or communication matrix that really helps us stay centered to our core value proposition. But then we use specific sub-messages. For example, for health systems, it will be how does this product help them from an operational efficiency perspective, or to be the innovative leader in their community. And then for physicians, that's specifically around how they can use this product for which types of patients.

So ultimately, it's complex, but I think once you're in the midst of it, it becomes second nature. But it's so important to have that connected communication strategy so that you have really clear, concise messages and then ultimately from a regulatory perspective that we stay on message.

Angela: Seems like there's a lot to solve for there. Jaime, we have a little bit of experience working in the healthcare space - even as a product development company, we produced, marketed and ultimately ended up selling the Hurricane, the number one cane sold in America. We sold it to Drive Medical several years ago.

So a little bit of experience there, and we've got clients that operate in this space as well. And I feel one thing that we experienced and we see our clients experiencing is with so much to solve for from a communication standpoint, sometimes it's hard to potentially get to that big idea. So how do you strike a balance between innovative marketing and adhering to either all of the constituents that need to understand what the product is, how it serves the consumer, or even just the rigorous standards of the healthcare world? How do you balance that?

Jaime: It is tough at times. And those are those days that I'm like, maybe I should do Cheerios or something else, but it goes back to kind of the value. And I think one of the advantages of our products is it usually does take us a while to get it from concept to market. So we do have time, and part of that is starting early.

So here are the things that I want to be able to say, and then working with your regulatory and legal partners to say, "Can we say this? Are you comfortable with this? What data or evidence or information do we have to support the things that we want to say?" And so my biggest advice is start early, because the more time you have to negotiate and work through those things, the faster you'll be able to move when you're actually at launch.

But yeah, healthcare marketing does operate under really strict standards. When you see the commercials or you get any sort of materials as a potential patient, that's many, many hours of work and debate that happens. And that, of course, then really does shape our ability to be creative. While we may not push the limits like some consumer brands, like Liquid Death for example, creativity is about finding ultimately compelling ways to move our customers forward - changing the behavior of a physician, for example, or providing information to a patient that could potentially use your product.

And this ultimately, like all marketing, that creativity will move those physicians or others from awareness to loyalty to our product. And I remember an example really early on in my career that really shaped this for me. I was working on a urology product for BPH, and that's benign prostatic hyperplasia.

And ultimately that's for men, it affects men and it affects their ability to go to the bathroom. So they feel like they have to, and then they get there and then they can't. So I actually proposed a bathroom stall poster because, of course, what better moment to...

Elena: It's a category entry point!

Jaime: Exactly, they are motivated in that moment. And that poster had a waterfall image and it was to show flow, right? That's what we were going to be helping them do. Well, unfortunately my legal team was like, "No, sorry, can't do that." And it was because that visual implied in their minds more improvement than what our product had shown in clinical evidence.

And it was one of those moments going, "But it's illustrative, it's metaphorical!" Like this is not like really you're looking at this waterfall and saying... but it was one of those moments where I'm like, "Wow, okay." Creativity, but within this construct of the healthcare environment.

And so from that day forward, you have to push the boundaries, but at the same time, there's always balancing the creative with the clinical side. And also, I mean, it makes sense. You don't want to over-promise to a consumer or to a patient more than you can deliver. So that's ultimately the balance that we constantly have to strike.

Angela: You know you've worked in healthcare when you're talking about and so deeply understanding implied versus stated claims. We understand that well. Healthcare is just a field where it feels like there's so much ongoing innovation. If you think about the consumer experience, we've got telehealth, we can now do cancer screening via USPS mail or FedEx mail. And Elena mentioned in the introduction your passion for understanding today's evolving customer. How have your customer behaviors, their expectations shifted over the years and how do you adapt your marketing strategies to really stay aligned with what the consumer is ultimately looking for?

Jaime: I think between COVID and just change of our environment, the biggest shift I've seen is with patients actually. So when I talk to physicians, 20 years ago, even our parents or even my grandparents, it was like the doctor said do X, they did X. Patients just didn't do a lot of research. They went in, the doctor said we need to do X and they did it. They really followed those recommendations, or they completely ignored it, but they didn't find alternatives.

And I would say now what we're seeing is patients are so much more empowered. You're seeing the virtual health movement, going online and seeking your own care, seeking prescriptions, like Hims and Hers for example. Patients are seeking multiple opinions. They're using their own consumer devices, like Apple watches to track arrhythmias or to really understand their heart rate.

And in some cases actually seeing when they have a potential arrhythmia, and then patients really want control of their data. They don't mind when their report is sent to their doctor, but they also want to see that report. So the biggest shift that I've seen and my team is having to adapt to is this changing dynamic with patients because physicians are not necessarily ready for their patients to be as on top of this or have as much of an opinion as they once had.

And so a huge challenge for us is how do we balance this? How do we keep our physicians happy, but also make the patients happy? So for example, like a pacemaker, it's in a patient's body for 15 years. It literally knows every heartbeat. It knows when you sleep, it knows when you're moving. It knows everything about what you're doing and really does circles around an Apple watch as far as accuracy.

And when we talk to physicians, patients ask us for their data. They want to know what's going on with their pacemaker. Well then, physicians would hesitate to say, "Well, I don't want to share that." It's really complex, those types of things. And so how do you balance that, I think is going to be a big challenge moving forward around what information is something that the patient gets to control versus the physician helping them navigate through that.

And so I think that's this changing patient consumer dynamic and the challenge of healthcare marketing when really their voice was kind of a secondary voice to the physician and in some markets, it's becoming almost a primary message.

Angela: You're totally right. We're so much more empowered as consumers today, even about our health. And I think we can debate, is that right? So much self-diagnosis, we've got so much access to information today. Just had a conversation with my husband four hours ago about him deciding he needs a metabolic panel done. He wants to make sure it's got a CBC read. He knows what that means. I don't, but it sounds like that should be coming from someone else than him.

Jaime: Well, and even if he does it, will he actually be able to interpret the results? I think that's the physician dynamic. It's like, well, are they going to have the right people there to walk them through that information or help them understand?

Angela: Right. But we just feel like we have so many ways to interpret that. I know when my mom was going through a battle with cancer, we would get from the Mayo Clinic readouts right in the portal. They just happened like immediately. And you're like, I have no idea what this says, but now I can take that into something like Chat GPT and get a really simple interpretation of what it means. And of course, I want the doctor to confirm that that is true, but it's just a different time.

Jaime: It is. And everybody is slightly different. I think that's, again, the marketing challenge - you have patients who just don't want to engage at all with the information. Then you have others that are super on top of it and going to put it into Chat GPT and try to understand and do more research.

So as a marketer, how do you deal with that huge range of potential patients wanting to interact with you and your product while also managing the physicians who choose your product and making sure that they don't get upset if you're going too far from what they want. So yeah, back to the complexity of all the stakeholders, how do you kind of keep everybody happy but also moving forward?

Angela: It feels like another area where consumer behavior has shifted is just around what we consume from a media perspective. Going into that side of things without diving into specifics, it's clear that you bring extensive experience across various marketing channels, including television. And I'm curious how you think marketers should approach the balance between long-term brand building - screening for colon cancer is not potentially something that we think about many, many years in advance, although we should have that awareness - but then also that short-term demand when someone is in market and I'm like, boom, I'm 45, apparently that's the magic number. That's when I should start screening. How do you balance those two knowing that every consumer is in a little bit of a different phase?

Jaime: No, I think balance is key, especially in healthcare. Because as you're calling out, it's not like Doritos or something where you can see a commercial and you can immediately go to Amazon and buy some or go to Target or do what you need to do. You know, healthcare is creating that awareness that when in that moment, you have that memory.

So I think balance is key because, as you were calling out with Cologuard, this is a noninvasive at-home test for colon cancer screening and the screening age starts at 45. Well, if someone sees our ad on television, who's 43 or 44, our goal is when they are with their doctor and they do turn 45, we've had enough of that television seed to have them know our brand and be able to remember that this was an alternative and ask their physicians for it.

So definitely television is that long awareness tail that's super important. But meanwhile, we do need the demand capture channels, the short-term quick channels, because those are those moments where they're actively thinking about screening. We want to get them to the information that they need.

So, 100 percent Angela, we have to do both because especially in healthcare, not everything is something that a consumer is going to need in that moment. So you need really that television long-term channel mixed with the short-term, direct action, like search, to get them what they need right when they need it.

Angela: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that ties then right into how do we know things are working? Marketing measurement is a challenge for every brand. It's likely even more complex for the brands you lead, given the diverse stakeholders. So how do you think about demonstrating that impact of marketing efforts, both long and short? You talked a little bit about brand awareness, of course, but the balance between the two and ultimately trying to drive growth for the company.

Jaime: It's a constant challenge and I think that the industry as well as just the function around marketing metrics is constantly evolving and trying to improve. I think for me, we really try to start with clear objectives and identify how we want to measure those outcomes.

So it's really a mix of metrics tailored to the audiences that we are going after as well as our goal. For example, for physicians, we track metrics like adoption, their usage of our product, their engagement with education content that shows their interests and their involvement and ultimately signs of their loyalty.

For patients, brand awareness, understanding - do they know at 45 they need to screen, where is our brand sitting within that awareness, but then also your more typical marketing things like content engagements, clicks, video watching, conversion rates. One of the things that we're trying to figure out is how do you really connect the top to the bottom?

So it's very hard for us in medical marketing to connect a very top of funnel activity to did they actually get our product? And so we are still working through how do you make those connections, using journey orchestration and different ways where we're trying to really connect those dots through the tech stack.

But it's a constant kind of improvement test and learn environment. We regularly review the metrics and adjust our strategy to try to ensure that we're measuring our activity and our value. But it's a constant improvement cycle for sure.

Elena: Yeah, I think we can relate to that a little bit. We have a belief in using multiple models, and it seems like you're focusing on over time. One thing you said a little earlier was the way you think about TV, you're thinking about not just who's in market today, but reaching who's going to be in market. And we wish that every marketer could look at TV that way because that's what it's so great at.

And that concept of hitting people who are out of market, it's one that's closely tied to marketing effectiveness, and we're a little bit obsessed with marketing effectiveness on the show. We're excited about it becoming better known in the United States, so we like to ask all of our guests - what does marketing effectiveness mean to you? And I don't know if you've seen there's been some critique over the United States. Are we behind? Would you agree that there's some sort of gap here in the U.S.?

Jaime: At least in my industry, I don't necessarily see a gap. But I do think just in general, we have an opportunity to improve marketing effectiveness. I think for me, complex because of all those different stakeholders, engaging the right audience in that moment. There's a different cycle of product.

And I think that's probably maybe a little bit different too, is having a product that truly meets and exceeds the customer needs - to me, that is like the basics of marketing effectiveness. So to me, the product is central to that and then everything else builds on top of it.

So when that product delivers value, whether that's improving patient outcomes or making physicians' jobs easier or better, it resonates then because you are truly - it's not smoke and mirrors, like it is literally making a direct impact. And that ultimately then drives customer acquisition, brand loyalty, business growth that leads to the larger marketing effectiveness.

So for me, that is really the central tenant - when you create value for both the customer and the business, you're going to see those great marketing outcomes.

Angela: That's great that you feel your space is doing this well. I think there's a lot of spaces that don't feel that way and where there's a lot of room for growth, which of course is exciting to be excited about on this podcast. We really like to explore bold contrarian perspectives that ultimately lead to effectiveness, even if they challenge popular opinion or industry norms, which in a lot of cases they do.

I mean, I think just the focus on long-term is a contrarian perspective with the growth of digital, everyone got so short-term minded. So when we think about a brand like Cologuard, back to that - what percent of Americans are turning 45 this year? I don't know, maybe like two - like that's why the 95 matters a lot. So with that in mind, what's your most contrarian marketing belief, maybe something that would surprise others or that you find people push back against kind of in a status quo in a meaningful way?

Jaime: I think that my biggest contrarian marketing opinion is really around what I call calling your baby ugly. And whenever I say that to people, they always look at me kind of like, what do you mean? But for me, what I've learned in my career is that marketers are kind of expected to be the biggest cheerleader for their products.

And so I think when you're in that seat, you think you have to sell everybody on your product and that is important, but what I say to my team all the time is no, no, no, for me, I want you first to call your baby ugly. Like I want you to pick it apart, figure out everything that the competition's going to say different.

Why is the customer not going to want your product? What are the reasons why they may not choose your product? What are the alternatives? And so for me, my first thing is, I want you to call your baby ugly. I need you to break this thing apart because if you don't do it, someone else will.

And so to me, that's the first job of a product marketer or a marketer in general - to do that first and then you can become the biggest cheerleader because you've covered that off, but I get the funniest expressions when I say that to people because they look at me like, I'm supposed to really love, I'm the owner of this product. I need to love it. You will, but first you need to call your baby ugly.

Angela: I love that. That's a much more fun way to say - I think internally we say we need to mine for dissension. We have an obligation to debate what's right. And to assume that we have it wrong. I think so many, whether you're in marketing or any field, can get into just status quo, what we're doing is working.

And in a world where there is so much innovation and disruption happening, it's on us to find those pieces before someone else does to expose. So one last question for you on the show. We really aim to blend insights and principles with actionable advice. And so reflecting on your career, what's one of the best decisions you've ever made as a marketer? And then maybe on the flip side, what's one lesson you've learned that has shaped something that you'd maybe never do again?

Jaime: So actually I started off right out of college in market research. And I think one of the best ways that I look back at my career is I'm really happy that I use my market research skills when transitioning into marketing.

When I meet with customers, when you're in market research, you learn how to ask good questions, not validating questions or directive questions. And so I think that was really impactful for me because it helped me avoid bias as I'm meeting with customers, asking them questions, really truly helping me get to what's going on with their opinion and their needs.

So that's what I would say for my best decision. Something that I would never do again - this one was fun to think about. I once jumped into a product launch that was less than six months away. So I just jumped in and didn't ask any questions. My job was to get this product out and into the market.

So I was laser focused on execution. But after the launch, I realized that when I was in the midst of the phase out conversations, the sales team did not want to phase out the older product and I thought, "What is going on here?" So I started to dig deeper and I learned that actually the market had shifted and that the new product was actually too niche and they needed the other product as well to truly stay relevant in the market and not lose market share.

And so for me, that experience and what I want to avoid after that moment was always ask about what's going on in the marketplace. Don't just blindly launch. So for me, I constantly prioritize reevaluating every stage - we have stage gates in our industry. So like at every gate, is this product still relevant? Is the market still what we thought it was? Do those market assumptions hold up?

And I think part of what's really underlying this is, as a marketing leader, it is critical to set the expectation that actually failing to question the product's ongoing need and value is actually a bigger failure than launching something that's unnecessary. So I think constantly asking that question may seem really bizarre, but that's better to kill it early if it's no longer relevant, than actually launch the product and then not have it be successful.

Angela: Great advice. I think given the success that you've had, it feels like you've learned well from those. You're doing this very well.

Jaime: Trying every day.

Angela: As we all are.

Elena: Thank you, Jaime. It's been so wonderful hearing from you. And I think one theme that I'm pulling out is just for marketers to be curious and ask questions, find the why. And I love "call your baby ugly." I'm definitely going to remember that.

And it can be so hard because I think yeah, it's like the status quo is easy, but also you learn to love your product and love your company and love your brand. And sometimes it's just painful hearing some of that truth, it can be hard. So I like making it fun with a phrase like that.

And by the way, Mark Ritson would love you, your focus on product. I'm doing this Marketing Week Mini MBA right now. And we're in the product week. So all of this is just like, oh, this is exactly what we should focus on. So to close this out here, I wanted to end with kind of a fun question. This episode was focused on product. So Jaime, what is your all-time favorite product and why is it your favorite?

Jaime: This is such a great question. I mean, all of your questions have been fantastic, but it's not a simple question when you think of a product. I mean, it is - I mean, it's one of the four P's - it's gigantic. So I would say probably my favorite product is the airplane. It's not a brand. It's just a product.

I love to travel. I love to explore new places. I love to experience new cultures and experience different worldviews. And I think airplanes have completely transformed how we connect with the world, making it so much smaller and more accessible and from a global, from a marketing and the med tech space, seeing how medicine is performed around the world has been extremely eye opening and just an amazing part of my career.

So for me an airplane - that's one thing that I hope to continue to be able to experience for a very long time. So and something I deeply value. So airplane.

Angela: Great answer. I know I struggled a little bit. You were on the same track as I was though because I was just like, geez, a favorite product - I love the question, it's just a big one. The automobile, the iPhone, the computer, we're talking about medicine. Like there's so much to go after. And so I went two angles with this one, one that's more tangible in terms of something you hold in your hand, but far more simple, and then one that's a little more intangible, but just so much value to me. The tangible one would be a lint roller.

To me is like the most satisfying, simple product you could possibly have. But if, especially if you're a woman - not nothing against the men - but if you wear black, you need it. And when you don't have one and you need it, it's just painful. And then just as a product, Amazon Prime. I mean, just adding value to my life in ungodly amounts of ways. I just love it. So those are my two.

Jaime: Those are really good. How about you Elena?

Elena: Yeah, so my favorite - and again, it's hard to pick because there's so many - personally, my favorite is navigation in your car. I don't know how anybody got anywhere. I know they used maps, but I don't understand. Yeah, I used to, when I was little, I'd print out MapQuest for my mom. And I never was worried about my mom's worries, but now thinking back like how in the world did my mom ever get us anywhere? And I just love, I use the maps in my car wherever I go. I'm addicted to it. I think like even going to the gym, 10 minutes away, I use it because I just like to see like, where am I? When am I going to get there?

Jaime: I was having a conversation with my kids the other day and it was like, well, in my day, we didn't have this and it's just so crazy. They're like, what? But all of the technology that's at our fingertips is just crazy compared to before.

Elena: Yeah, think about when I have kids, what's the thing about my life now that they're not going to - they're like, how did you get by? Or even hearing about my dad in school, like before the computer was available, like just what he had to go through.

Anyways, before we close out, Jaime, anything you wanted to plug? We'll include your LinkedIn, your company website, but anything else to sign off?

Jaime: No, just thank you for having me. I love your podcast. I listened to all of them. I love all the research as we talked about. And so just thank you for having me. It's great.

Angela: So great to have you. Thanks for joining us, Jamie.